Introduction
Anna Stukas (00:00:00):
Thank you for coming today. My name is Anna Stukas. I'm the Vice President of Strategic Partnerships at 1PointFive. We are a technology company that is deploying technology to— oh, and sorry, I was supposed to remind you to please put your headphones on so that you can hear us clearly. 1PointFive is a technology company that is deploying technology to capture carbon dioxide directly out of the atmosphere at which point you can then store it safely and securely underground, creating carbon removal, or combine it with clean hydrogen to create sustainable aviation fuel.
Anna Stukas (00:00:49):
Just going to get my timer going so that we don't go too long. Wonderful. So we're here today to talk to you about carbon removals—here, now, and scalable. When we look at the challenge of decarbonizing aviation, the IATA Net Zero roadmaps project that if we follow on with business as usual, we'll be looking at just shy of two billion tonnes per year of carbon emissions in 2050, if we are going to tackle those emissions.
Anna Stukas (00:01:22):
We have a number of different levers that we can pull, starting with some of the easiest things or the things that we can do that make sense, that save us money. Things like efficiency and operational improvements. We have some of the further-looking technologies like hydrogen. And then we have a very large wedge that is projected to be addressed using sustainable aviation fuels.
Why Carbon Removals
Anna Stukas (00:01:48):
When we look at this roadmap, though, we're left with a wedge at the bottom of residual emissions that cannot be tackled through emission reduction. And IATA projects that those are going to be on the order of magnitude of 500 million tonnes per year in 2050. So we need carbon removals to counterbalance those residual emissions. One of the other things that we see in those roadmaps is that there is significant uncertainty on whether or not we will actually be able to scale up those other pieces of the solution at the rate and pace that we need to.
Anna Stukas (00:02:30):
So, what we can also see as a role for carbon removals is as a way to help us to accelerate decarbonization in areas where sustainable aviation fuel is scarce, and to take up the slack of what we might otherwise expect to be addressed by those other solutions, should those other solutions fall short. But we can't get to 500 million tonnes of carbon removals overnight.
Anna Stukas (00:02:56):
We can't simply snap our fingers in 2049 and magically have a 500 million tonne per year industry magically appear. Instead, we need to start building up that infrastructure today. We need to start those investments today and ramp that up slowly and gradually over time, starting low and growing so that we can build that infrastructure so that it's in place.
Anna Stukas (00:03:24):
With the 500 million tonnes per year of removals that we'll need in 2050 for aviation to reach net zero. So it's really not a question of either, or. It's a question of both, and. we need all of the levers to reduce emissions. And we need to increase our investments in carbon removals to reach net zero. Over the last 24 months, we've been incredibly lucky to have fabulous partners join us to accelerate the deployment of Direct Air Capture technology, which is a critical piece in durable carbon removals.
Anna Stukas (00:04:02):
This started with the leadership of Airbus in March of 2022, committing to pre-purchase 400,000 tonnes of permanent carbon removal. In July 2022 that was followed up by the addition of several airlines who had joined with Airbus to collaborate around carbon removal. In November 2022, Carbon Engineering, which is the technology development arm of our technology, was very fortunate to receive investment from Airbus and Air Canada.
Anna Stukas (00:04:36):
And then last August, we had All Nippon Airways out of Japan join us as the first airline to directly purchase carbon removals from 1PointFive. We had a busy autumn in 2023 with Amazon as well as EasyJet, Air Canada and Lufthansa joining us—EasyJet, Air Canada and Lufthansa through Airbus. And then just a few weeks ago, we were delighted to announce a partnership with Microsoft, where Microsoft has committed to purchase 500,000 tonnes of carbon removal, which is the largest purchase of carbon removal from Direct Air Capture to date.
What is Direct Air Capture?
Anna Stukas (00:05:15):
So what is Direct Air Capture and why are we doing it? Well, Direct Air Capture enables complementary solutions for both carbon removal and for emissions reduction through the future production of SAF. So at its core, what we are doing is we've developed a way of efficiently capturing large quantities of climate relevant scale carbon dioxide directly out of the air, using novel combinations of existing equipment and simple chemistry.
Anna Stukas (00:05:49):
From there, you can either take that carbon dioxide and store it safely and securely deep underground, allowing carbon removal with storage on geologic time scales to counterbalance the emissions that you might see from residual fuel usage. Or you can take that atmospheric carbon dioxide. You can combine it with clean hydrogen, and you can use that to produce sustainable aviation fuel through power to liquids or e-fuels processes.
Anna Stukas (00:06:21):
What you see on the screen there is not a PowerPoint rendering. That is fuel that we actually produced at Carbon Engineering's pilot facilities in Squamish, British Columbia, Canada, as part of a Government of Canada challenge to produce sustainable aviation fuel domestically. Today, though, it's far more cost effective to focus on carbon removals, allowing us to scale up our Direct Air Capture infrastructure so that as the cost of clean hydrogen comes down, it's also available as a future feedstock for fuels if and when we need it.
Anna Stukas (00:06:59):
And this isn't just a science project. This is something that is real that we are actively working to deploy today. What you see behind me is an actual image of the first commercial project to deploy Carbon Engineering's Direct Air Capture technology at scale. 1PointFive is deploying this project in the west of Texas. STRATOS, when fully operational, is targeted to capture approximately 500,000 tonnes per year of carbon directly out of the air and store that carbon safely and securely underground in saline formations.
Benefits of DAC
Anna Stukas (00:07:40):
This is what a $1 billion scale project looks like. This is not PowerPoint carbon removals. This is real steel in the ground, commercial project underway. And it gets me very excited. So why would you look at carbon dioxide removal using Direct Air Capture technology? First of all, when you capture that carbon out of the air, you can quite literally measure exactly how much carbon is being pulled out of the air using flow meters.
Anna Stukas (00:08:18):
You can then track that molecule of carbon as it flows through our process and again through another flow meter. Measure exactly how much carbon dioxide is being put underground. That means it's highly measurable and verifiable. It allows you to have a high integrity solution that can quantifiably tell you exactly how much carbon you've taken out of the air.
Anna Stukas (00:08:50):
It's also highly durable. When we talk about putting carbon in the air, which is what happens when we fly our airplanes as the ones that you can hear overhead are now doing, carbon dioxide that goes into the atmosphere will stay in the atmosphere for thousands of years. So if we are going to counterbalance those emissions of the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, we need to have storage solutions that are going to parallel the length of time that that CO₂ will be in the atmosphere.
Anna Stukas (00:09:22):
So when we put that carbon safely and securely underground, and that's something that our parent company has been doing at a multi-million tonne per year scale for over 50 years, that CO₂ will stay underground for thousands of years using proven sequestration technology. These are also highly scalable. When you look at this project that's currently underway, it looks enormous.
Anna Stukas (00:09:54):
But capturing 500,000 tonnes per year, that does the work of about 20 million trees. And this is roughly the size I've been told of about 13 soccer pitches or five baseball fields, depending on which sporting analogy you prefer. So it's highly efficient when we talk about land and water use. It allows us to invest in capture solutions in places where we might not otherwise be able to invest in other solutions, such as nature-based solutions.
Anna Stukas (00:10:26):
The project that you see here is actually deployed in a tiny little place called Notrees, Texas. So it's highly scalable. You have a virtually unlimited feedstock, and you can power these plants using renewable electricity that we can build out. The other thing that you can see—sorry for flipping back and forth—just behind this site, is the large, bare patch of land where the solar installation is going to go that we're building out to power this facility and provide the renewable electricity, to power everything.
Anna Stukas (00:11:06):
Finally, we are already seeing registries that have received approval from the International Civil Aviation Organization to issue CORSIA-eligible emission units. We already have at least one registry that is fully approved to issue CORSIA-eligible emission units by the ICAO Technical Advisory body, and we expect to see more coming in the next few months. So these are tools that airlines can use today.
Anna Stukas (00:11:36):
They are tools that airlines can use to address their impending compliance obligations, and they form a critical part of net zero plans. So how does this fit within the rest of a portfolio? The University of Oxford has done some fabulous work, putting out now two reports in 2020 and followed up with a revised version in 2024 of the Oxford Principles for Carbon Removal for Net Zero aligned offsetting.
Anna Stukas (00:12:09):
And what that tells us is that in these portfolio approaches, we need to shift from avoidance to removals. And from short-lived storage to long-lived storage. And we need to do so over time, particularly as we invest to scale up those removals. Importantly, it also tells us that we need to start those investments today if we're going to be able to scale to the levels that we need.
Carbon Removal for Net Zero
Anna Stukas (00:12:36):
By the time we're living in a net zero world. So you've all heard me talk about why I think we need to do removals. It's time to hear from the people who really matter and Carrie, we're going to start it off with you. British Airways has incorporated removals into their net zero plans. You've been one of the forefront leaders in terms of investing in carbon removals.
Anna Stukas (00:13:01):
Can you talk a little bit about, you know, why is this a necessary component of your net zero plan, complementing your investments in efficiency and sustainable aviation fuel?
Carrie Harris (00:13:12):
Sure. Is this on? Good. Hi, everyone. And thank you, Anna, for that. So I think in a nutshell, so you set out there in your opening talk there. The pathway to net zero for aviation, by 2050, is not doable without carbon removals. Whether it's IATA, whether it's our own roadmap, whether it's the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Committee for Climate Change in the UK, all of these roadmaps agree aviation cannot reach net zero by 2050 without carbon removals. So it's essential for us.
Carrie Harris (00:13:51):
And I think if we look at our motivation for doing it, there is really kind of two main elements. First one is thinking about that long term need to scale this market. And you set out that according to the IATA roadmap, aviation will need a minimum of 500 million tonnes of carbon removals per year. I say minimum because that requires a favorable wind on all the other elements.
Carrie Harris (00:14:21):
So it's highly possible, if not probable, that it could be significantly more than that. And as you also said, if we don't start working on this now, there is no way we will have that scale of infrastructure, of the ability to do that by 2050. So it's critical from that perspective that we get into action as soon as possible.
Carrie Harris (00:14:43):
The second rationale for our engagement in this is a kind of short term, immediate need. The climate emergency is here and now and we have carbon removal. So you've spoken here about Direct Air Capture, but there's multiple different types of carbon removals, and many of them are available here and now. If we can start taking carbon out of the atmosphere immediately, we can prevent higher increases in temperature and volatile climate systems that we're seeing.
Carrie Harris (00:15:17):
So the sooner we do it, the better for everyone. And those are really the main drivers for us in terms of why we're acting early and keen to try and scale this market and stimulate the market.
Anna Stukas (00:15:29):
Fabulous. And thank you for that. Oh my goodness, you're loud when you talk into your own. Anyway, Myles, can you set the stage for us and provide a little more context around the Oxford principles? And you know, when we talk about permanent, when we talk about durable, what do we actually mean and why is that important?
Myles Allen (00:15:47):
Well, the first permanence we need to think about is actually the opposite of the removal permanence. And that's what you mentioned in your talk. The fact that when we burn a fossil fuel, the impact of the CO₂ generated by that fossil fuel is it's going to last for hundreds of thousands of years. It continues to affect the climate indefinitely. And therefore the only genuine compensation for generating CO₂ from burning of fossil fuel is disposing of CO₂ permanently on a similar timescale. So that sets that sort of multi-millennial timescale that we need to think about for disposing of CO₂. And the other thing which I would really—the reason we, every one of us who benefits from the continued use of fossil fuels today, and we all do.
Myles Allen (00:16:40):
You know, I work for a global university. We have no intention of stopping being a global university, and therefore we're going to depend on airlines to enable us to be a global university for you know, the next many decades, we hope, many centuries even more so. So, you know, we've set ourselves in Oxford a target of net zero by 2035.
Myles Allen (00:16:59):
And part of the background to those Oxford principles for Net Zero Aligned Offsetting was a realization that we're not going to get to net zero by 2035, just by doing our best to reduce the emissions of our own estate. If we want to remain a global university, we're going to depend on the continued use of fossil fuels in, particularly, in international travel.
Myles Allen (00:17:18):
And if we are going to do that, we've got a responsibility to scale permanent CO₂ disposal. And it's that's where, you know, I think the case for high-carbon sectors like the aviation industry for investing in permanent carbon dioxide removal goes beyond what you think you're going to need for your sector in 2050. There's also a moral case that if you're benefiting specifically from continued use in fossil fuels, we know the world is going to generate too much CO₂.
Myles Allen (00:17:53):
That's a certainty now. We're not going to stop using fossil fuels in time to actually meet our climate goals. One of the things I, I spent a lot of the last COP talking to people, sometimes arguing with people, about the phrase “fossil phaseout.” And the point I like to keep reminding people is we've left it too late to meet our climate goals
Unknown (00:18:12):
By phasing out fossil fuels. One day we will stop using fossil fuels, unquestionably, but we have to stop fossil fuels from causing global warming before the world stops using fossil fuels. We can't. We've left it too late to do it by just stopping using fossil fuels entirely. And that's why that any sector that benefits from continued use of fossil fuels has a moral obligation to scale up permanent carbon dioxide disposal, because that's the only way of stopping continued fossil fuel use from causing global warming, in the longer term.
Net Zero Road Maps
Anna Stukas (00:18:45):
Wonderful. And in that scale up, you know, we need to get moving and, you know, the the IATA Net Zero Roadmaps that say we need 500 million tons per year by 2050. You know, what, can you speak a little bit to what themes you're seeing in terms of, you know, having carbon dioxide removal in net zero plans?
Anna Stukas (00:19:09):
Are you seeing, you know, we've got leadership from from leaders like BA. What are you seeing in terms of the global aviation industry and the recognition of that need for removals to complement all of those other efforts?
Hermant Mistry (00:19:23):
Yeah. Hi, everyone. So, you know, when we did the road maps, we were really trying to understand what could be achievable in a practical sense based on what we know is going to be coming in terms of maturity in the coming future. And just to reemphasize what has already been said, you know, even though we looked at all of the levers which we're all quite familiar with, there is still going to be a significant amount in terms of removals that is required, that's required across all different roadmaps.
Hermant Mistry (00:19:54):
So this is a solution we all need. Now, what we find is when I talk to the airlines, my team talks to the airlines, we do see a growing recognition of removals and the need to move now, because we need to start to invest in this space so that we can support the scale up. And, you know, as IATA, as we represent over 330 member airlines from across the world.
Hermant Mistry (00:20:17):
And part of our role is to try and support that, education across the airlines, providing the right tools in terms of procurement, etcetera. And we've been asked to support on that basis. And we're working across this industry segment, working with industry, working across airlines, so we can try to develop these best practices so that we can support the different actors to actually help support scale up.
Hermant Mistry (00:20:40):
But of course, scale up also depends on governments, playing a part as well. There's a role in terms of incentives and so on as well. So maybe we can cover that a little bit as well. But I think the recognition across the airlines is growing pretty quickly. And I think that's a really good thing.
Anna Stukas (00:20:54):
Well, and that's the perfect segue to what I wanted to ask Gabrielle, which is how do we get everybody to get off their butts and start investing now? How do we make this happen today instead of ten years from now?
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:21:04):
That is the, the many, many million dollar question, probably trillion dollar question that actually keeps you awake at night and that I'm actually thinking of 24/7. So thank you very much for putting that question to me. So I'm Co-Founder of CUR8 and Rethinking Removals. Two organizations that are dedicated to scaling carbon removals at the pace that we actually need to. And at CUR8 we actually provide portfolio solutions for businesses, but also, deeply understanding the ecosystem to find out what it will take to get people to buy now, why should they do that? And so we have a lot of conversations with business leaders.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:21:40):
And we're working quite closely with British Airways and, uh, who is showing fantastic leadership in this space. But the main thing that I hear from business leaders about acting now is, if I take this to my CFO and say I need a budget for carbon removals, then I get question number one: Is anyone telling us to do this?
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:21:57):
Question two: what's anyone else doing? And question three, what can we claim? What credit can we get for doing this? And so those are the three crucial questions that any CFO sort of needs to answer. And I'm fascinated by what's happening in the aviation space because this is this is a sector where, the, the, the coming compliance is coming faster than I think in any other area.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:22:19):
But also the thing that Myles was talking about, this is actually, the business model depends and will depend for a while on using fossil fuels. And so there’s a moral obligation maybe. But there's also a business imperative because here are some useful things that might be interesting for any of you to hear, which are first of all, we've been operating at CUR8 for two years, and in that time, prices of carbon removal supply have gone up by 40%.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:22:44):
And we've actually done some analysis now, which is making it look as if it could be another 50% increase between now and 2035. And that sounds a bit surprising, because at the moment there's a dearth of bias. It feels like it's a demand constrained market, but it's not demand constrained. It's demand suppressed because at the moment people aren't quite acting.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:23:02):
They don't quite understand, they don't know that they need to do it. And as the recommendations from the Oxford offsetting principles, from IATA, as this gets integrated in CORSIA, as compliance comes along, there's going to be a supply crunch and prices are going to go up. And it's not just that prices are going to go up, it’s that access to supply is going to be challenging.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:23:24):
And so a lot of the suppliers that we work with are so eager to get offtakes now. So the three different ways that you can do it. First of all, you can do an offtake where you pay upfront for it and then you know you've guaranteed your supply at a certain price, or you can do an offtake where you say, “I promise to buy it.”
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:23:42):
And this is a signal to the market that there's going to be a future market. So we can then finance it. And CUR8 did a piece of work with British Airways at the end of last year, which was actually the world's first-of-a-kind financing for taking an offtake for removals and turning it into financing for people on the ground.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:24:00):
So you can pay upfront, you can just commit but have a different mechanism for financing. And the other thing is, if you buy now, you could also negotiate a first refusal for future credits from any of these suppliers. And I think when we're talking to CFOs about this, smart CFOs are realizing this is going to be needed, prices are going up, supply is going to be constrained.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:24:22):
And also we can tell a good story. This is a point—I loved our conversations with IATA because it's the first time I'd heard any sector recognizing that it's not as existential to us to grow this industry, and therefore we need to be playing our part because we're going to have to have it. So I think those are some of the reasons.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:24:41):
It's basically get in now so you can get the best prices, you can get the best access, you can get the best story, and you can show that you're showing the leadership and commitment to building the industry that's going to be so essential for the aviation sector.
Anna Stukas (00:24:54):
And when you're looking at that, you know, Carrie, you know, I'm sure one of the things that that comes up as well is how is the public going to react? How are my customers going to react when I invest in something like this? How important are things like the Oxford principles or like having the entire industry association say this is going to be necessary? How does that figure in to that public sentiment of “this is something that we need to do?”
Carrie Harris (00:25:21):
So we actually moved ahead of IATA having their position on this and ahead of the latest offsetting principles, but even the first set of them were extremely helpful for us in terms of making the case for why we need this in future. Interestingly, from a customer perspective, so we first introduced carbon removals on to our customers, on our consumer facing platform called Collaborate. So we had some emissions offsets. We introduced sustainable aviation fuel as an option.
Carrie Harris (00:25:58):
And then I think we were the first airline to offer certified carbon removal credits as well, available for customers to purchase. When we did that, the initial uptake of them wasn't strong, but we thought it was really important that we had it on there to start building awareness about what these are. And we did some customer kind of consumer research.
Carrie Harris (00:26:19):
And while a lot of people had heard about offsets, some of them had heard about SAF, they thought it sounded cool, but they didn't really know what it was. Almost no one had heard about carbon removals, but once we explained it to them, they were like, “wow, that makes sense. Why don’t we do more of this?”
Carrie Harris (00:26:39):
So, you know, it's still there on our platform. We still offer it is a blend of sustainable aviation fuel and carbon removals. We need to start educating people about what these are, the opportunities, the climate opportunity, the business and the jobs opportunities, especially within the UK. Because it's super exciting. It's not just a great climate solution.
Carrie Harris (00:27:01):
It's an economic opportunity as well. And in the UK, we're uniquely positioned to really capitalize on that and make the most of it for for our kind of UK economy as well.
Anna Stukas (00:27:12):
Gabrielle?
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:27:14):
Just a couple quick comments. One of them is that, you know, the point about how people react to this. I think there are fabulous stories to tell. The incredibly exciting ecosystem of new developments. I was there when the when STRATOS was just groundbreaking. It was just desert all around and just barely over a year. You can see how it's developing now, but all of the others as well, it’s a very exciting ecosystem. But also they say people say, “I didn't know you could do this.” and it's not just stopping the problem getting worse, it's actually fixing it.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:27:45):
It's actually cleaning up a mess is something that I think is a fabulous story. And there's one other thing I wanted to mention related to how you tell this story, which is based on what you just said, Carrie, which is about the government, the UK government, any government, but particularly the UK government now. Acting now is actually showing the government a level of commitment, as they're thinking about how they're going to do their compliance. And the government is being driven increasingly by what, you know, people in the street are saying.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:28:15):
So how customers react, and how the government reacts, and being a first mover all become quite tightly connected together to this story of “we're building this, and this is going to be a solution that will actually solve the problem.”once. And you will. Hemant and Gabrielle both mentioned the importance of government in this. And one message to get anybody from UK government, here.
Anna Stukas (00:28:28):
Myles?
Myles Allen (00:28:39):
Hermant and Gabrielle both mentioned the importance of government in this and one message—I don’t see anybody from UK government here—but one really important message to remind people of is if we look at the scenarios, the scenarios in which carbon prices, which is sort of a proxy for stringency of climate policy or unpopularity of current government, you could also say unpopularity of climate policy. In these scenarios, the scenarios in which carbon prices go through the roof as we approach net zero are the ones where we are supply constrained on carbon removal.
Myles Allen (00:29:05):
And that's a really important fundamental point. If you don't have a way of getting rid of carbon dioxide as you're approaching net zero, your only opportunity left is to actually ban the activities that generate the carbon dioxide in the first place. And that's the point at which climate policy becomes incredibly expensive and almost certainly incredibly unpopular. So this is the message we need to be getting across to the world's governments. Is your choice is investing in carbon removal today so that you have it available so that we don't have to ban the activities that generate fossil origin carbon dioxide in the future, or face the prospect of that horrendous unpopularity which should come from telling
Myles Allen (00:29:48):
people, “No, you can't take a holiday by air because we haven't invested enough in carbon removal. So there's nothing to do with the CO₂ you're going to generate.” And you know that that's where I think you'll get politicians to focus minds because they'll realize that this is a risk they don't want to run. And this is something I think we do need to get across to our current generation of politicians, particularly working in environmental departments,
Myles Allen (00:30:17):
Are still thinking in a slightly—I wouldn't want to name names of course in any current or previous administration—but there’s still a tendency to think in a sort of, pre-2009 mentality that we can do this by just reducing the amount of carbon dioxide we generate. We can't. It's too late for that. We're going to have to get rid of a colossal quantity of CO₂ over the course of this century.
Myles Allen (00:30:45):
And we need therefore to be scaling the technology to be doing that now.
The Global Carbon Market
Anna Stukas (00:30:48):
And I think, you know, you mentioned the prospect of banning activities. But the reality is more than half of the world hasn't been on an airplane. And how is it, you know, incumbent upon—how would that come across if the developed world were to say “hey, people who've never been on an airplane before, you can't.” And airlines don't just move people. Airlines connect people. They form the basis for that global economy that interconnected commonly that we have.
Myles Allen (00:31:19):
We've had this point in no uncertain terms. To me, as a university, you know, we can introduce sort of policies to minimize flying. And we do try to reduce the amount of flying we, we require our students and staff to do. But then, you know, I talk to colleagues in Australian universities or in Japanese universities or South American universities. They say, “look, if we want to engage with global academia, we've got no option but to get on the plane.” And that's fair enough. And so I think, exactly, turning round, particularly sitting in a highly privileged country like the UK, which has built its prosperity on using fossil fuels, let's face it, we were the ones who kicked this off, after all, in the first place. And saying to the rest of the world, no, we want you to keep it in the ground without offering any alternative. It's just morally unacceptable.
Anna Stukas (00:32:04):
Hermant.
Hermant Mistry (00:32:06):
Yeah, but just to build on what's already been said, you know, we are, of course, pushing very hard for technology maturity, technology scale up as well. But another reason for doing this is also that we need functioning markets. So we need to move away from relying or catching up or responding to policy measures. We need to actually get to a functioning market as we need to do for SAF, by the way, as well, you know, and so once we get to that level and we have a competitive market for some of these solutions, then we as airlines can move forward as we would do in any other business principle. That’s where we need to move forward to.
Anna Stukas (00:32:40):
And with those competitive markets, those need to really go hand in hand. And so how do you see that interplay between markets and compliance markets like CORSIA. We're also seeing, you know, California, British Columbia have added Direct Air Capture to sequestration into their low carbon fuel standards as a way of incentivizing that early investment. How do you see those two things going hand in hand?
Hermant Mistry (00:33:02):
Well, I mean, I think they're complementary, really, in a way. I mean, first of all, you have the compliance markets and there's going to be an obligatory part as to how different levers might support those solutions. But also airlines have broader obligations as well. So, you know, I think that competitive market for the sourcing of these products is what's necessary to comply but also meet voluntary obligations as well.
Anna Stukas (00:33:25):
Perfect. And I think I saw Carrie and then Gabrielle.
Carrie Harris (00:33:27):
Yes, I was actually going to come in exactly to your question. So the compliance market is absolutely crucial. And I'd say in aviation, we're lucky that the foundation that's been put in place by CORSIA—now, CORSIA is not perfect. It does still need to be strengthened. But we already have an incredible mechanism by which we can bring carbon dioxide removals into a global compliance market for aviation. So it's a huge opportunity. We're already thinking about that compliance obligation and how we can introduce removals as part of that. And we're working actively with IATA to try and influence ICAO to adopt that in the next iteration of CORSIA.
Carrie Harris (00:34:09):
So super important. We're also seeing really strong signals from UK government in terms of the SAF mandate legislation now offering incentives for removals. Which is very, very welcome. And we'd like to see that go a step further so that the emissions trading system also incentivizes funding of that early action on carbon removals. So we get the credits for that now. Because to Gabriel's point, trying to make the case for this, to your CFOs, will be a whole lot easier if we can do that.
Carrie Harris (00:34:43):
And so I think we need hand-in-hand to work with government and the project developers to help mobilize that.
Mandates and Incentives
Myles Allen (00:34:50):
Can I just ask, we have a SAF mandate and incentives for removals. Should we not have a mandate for removals?
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:34:58):
That's what I was about to say.
Anna Stukas (00:35:00):
Could say, or we could just combine the two.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:35:03):
So a point here really—
Myles Allen (00:35:06):
sorry to put you on the spot.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:35:07):
But I think a point here about, about the relationship between the compliance and voluntary markets is that it's very clear that the voluntary markets need to be functioning for compliance to come. Governments need to have the assurance that supply is going to be there. They need to have the assurance that the markets are working. And I think that's the relationship between them. But I was going to say exactly that, Myles, which is that one of the wonderful things about working with the aviation industry is we've already been doing this for SAF. We've already been really working together to get a functioning market. We've already got governments who are giving mandates which are actually meaningful, you know, robust targets, but actually achievable so that that's something at a level playing field that so many businesses understand.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:35:47):
And, you know, how wonderful it would be if there's this, experiences and making the market for SAF and those experiences of getting the, the SAF mandates could actually, could actually rhyme with what happens in removals. And I think governments are going to notice that. So what can we do to make it happen?
Anna Stukas (00:36:06):
Carrie then Hermant.
Carrie Harris (00:36:07):
Yes. I think, you know, the UK government has already signaled—the previous government, hopefully this one too—contracts the difference for carbon dioxide removal, for engineered removals is in the plan already. We'd like to see that extended to beyond engineered removals. So we scale up so we can get more volume out into the atmosphere in the short term while we scale up that longer term solution as well.
Carrie Harris (00:36:30):
So I think there's opportunities for that. And so interestingly, it's almost the reverse of the SAF story, where we've got a commitment to contract the difference before we've got the mandate. But SAF we kind of had a commitment to a mandate. And then just last week, heard about the revenue certainty mechanism. But you're right. There’s very strong parallels between the two processes, we do need government policy in whichever way it comes. We need it.
Anna Stukas (00:36:56):
Absolutely. Hermant.
Hermant Mistry (00:36:58):
Yeah. And maybe just to add, I think, you know, with our experience on SAF, I wouldn't say we have a functioning market right now. There's still a lot more work to be done. And also, you know, we also have to be careful—mandates by themselves don't create a functioning market, at least from the source.
Hermant Mistry (00:37:12):
If you're looking at a procurement perspective from an airline, the mandate doesn't actually create that functioning market itself. So I think there's a lot more lessons that we are learning from SAF, which we definitely need to bring into the carbon removal space as well.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:37:24):
One thing that the mandate or the promise of a mandate does do is it gives you an answer to that question number one from the CFO: Is anybody telling us to do it? So one of the marvelous things that the Oxford Offsetting Principles update did this year—thank you very much, Myles and all your colleagues—is for the first time ever for any voluntary rule setter, it said you need to start buying carbon removals now. It’s the first of any of the voluntary rule setters to make that absolutely clear.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:37:46):
So the first one to say yes, someone's telling us to do it. But even the promise of a mandate is another piece of evidence that goes to the CFO to say, this is coming, it's going to cost you, get the pricing and the supply and now.
Anna Stukas (00:37:59):
So we know, and we know from the Oxford principles, from leading academics, in our end state in net zero, we need every single remaining emission to be counterbalanced by essentially a negative emission with equivalent storage. And we need that one plus negative one to equal zero. We also know that you can't go straight to that end state today. We can't go to a world where we're using 100% SAF and 100% permanent carbon removals. There's going to be a scale up. There's going to be portfolio approaches that we need to start with. And we also know that there's an incredible amount of scrutiny around the aviation sector right now, in light of some of the news about offsets that might not be delivering what we originally thought they were going to.
Anna Stukas (00:38:50):
So both from a customer perspective, when you're looking at potential purchasing options and then you know more from the overall infrastructure and regulatory perspective, how do we ensure credibility? How do we ensure that when we do this, that the right guardrails are in place to know that when you say you've bought a tonne of carbon removal, that a tonne of carbon has actually come out of the air and gone somewhere, and stayed there, and how do we how do we work to scale that up?
Ensuring Credibility
Anna Stukas (00:39:22):
And how do we make sure that we're maintaining the public trust and the government trust as we do that? And I'm just arbitrarily going to start and go from my left to right. So Myles, Carrie, Gabrielle, Hermant.
Myles Allen (00:39:35):
Well, I think that was a really a question for you, Carrie. But I'm happy to chip in with a view on this, which is that, first of all, you mentioned the need for, for both, nature-based removals and permanent engineered removals now, in order to get the volume of taking carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, we absolutely get that. And we really emphasize that point in the Oxford Principles. But it's also very important to recognize the long-term limits to the biosphere, in terms of how much carbon we can expect to put away into the biosphere to compensate for any continued use of fossil fuels.
Myles Allen (00:40:17):
And, you know, us academics are arguing about when the party's going to end on that one, but it will end relatively soon. I mean, within decades, for sure. So anybody who's planning on still using fossil fuels past mid-century needs to have a plan for 100% engineered removals by that time to compensate for any continued use of fossil fuels that they're making.
Myles Allen (00:40:42):
At that point. And so I think it's much more about—on this credibility issue, it's much more about having a demonstrable plan than it is exactly what you're doing today. And you need to be putting investment behind the plan. I mean, it's all very well saying “Don't worry. You know, in 2049 we'll switch to 100% engineered removals, but we'll just do whatever up until then.” That's not going to work.
Myles Allen (00:41:04):
That rightly shouldn't convince your shareholders and certainly shouldn't convince your other stakeholders either. So it's having a—what would be great would be if purchases of removals would actually publish the profile they plan to follow. That would send a really positive market signal. And we can actually show you in the scenarios what has to happen to the fraction of your removals that's permanently being stored back underground.
Myles Allen (00:41:34):
You know, it's around 10% by the early 2030s, 50% by 2040, 100% by 2050. If you can show us you're following that pathway, then I think we answer, we have an answer to the skeptics who are saying, this is just sort of shuffling carbon around and not really addressing the problem.
Carrie Harris (00:41:55):
So if you want to look in the IAG annual report for 2023, you can see our roadmap with carbon removals set out in that and how we get to that. And exactly as you say, by 2050, our intention is that all of our residual emissions will be addressed by removals, not through avoided emissions credits. I think back to your original question, Anna, and the credibility of this and what to do with the kind of nature-based element.
Carrie Harris (00:42:23):
I think it's worth just recognizing that we have a climate crisis, but we have a nature and biodiversity crisis as well, and they're running in parallel. And the opportunity with removals is to fix or at least address both of those. So there is some skepticism around avoided emissions offsets and nature based removals offsets. We should not stop doing it because of that.
Carrie Harris (00:42:54):
We need to fix it. We need to make it more credible. We need very robust monitoring and accounting systems reporting. All of those are coming. Some of them are in place. We need those to be more rigorous. We need to build strength in that and keep going with those investments, because stopping that is also not the right way to go forward.
Carrie Harris (00:43:12):
We need to build that market to respect nature and invest in nature. In terms of our customers and how we're ensuring credibility is really kind of looking to working with trusted partners like correct, who help us kind of double down on the due diligence, check in with the projects that we're purchasing. Giving us that extra level of assurance on the monitoring and verification that goes with those credits.
Carrie Harris (00:43:42):
And it's making sure that the international compliance standards are kind of coming in and addressing all the different types of removals that exist. So all of those in combination, I think, really important.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:43:53):
So, yes, I was going to say we put as soon as we found it a key, right? We put a lot of effort into the due diligence, of course. And so it's really we look at every aspect of the suppliers that we work with, not just does the science work, not just are they actually going to be able to deliver what they say, not just what's the risk of non-delivery, but also are they are they likely still to be in business?
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:44:21):
What's their financial status? And particularly we have a whole big effort around Beyond Carbon. So it's not just something that’s on the side. We think that that suppliers that go beyond just carbon are likely to continue to be sustainable in the future. And so that's another big criterion when it comes to the DD. So doing the due diligence is important.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:44:39):
But it’s kind of table stakes right. And there's plenty of organizations out there. The ICVCM, in particular, is charged with trying to make sure that carbon credits have the integrity that we need in the future. And they're doing a good job of that, with their core carbon principles. But I think beyond that it's not actually true.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:44:56):
People have a fear that if it's a kind of nature based then it's a bit more dodgy. And if it's, tech, it's not. And if it's tech it's not, as you mentioned, Direct Air Capture really is a kind of platinum standard for this because, you know, you get the CO₂, you can sort of put it in a blimp, you can measure it, you can weigh it, you know exactly what you've got.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:45:15):
But other carbon removals methods, it's harder to do that measuring and monitoring and verification. And everything's got something that makes it challenging. And we're going to need this portfolio combination. So regular listeners of meters will know that I am utterly allergic to nature or tech: which one is it? Because there's actually an entire spectrum of different combinations of natural resources and human ingenuity that go to making this, this area, and every single one of them is needing its own direct due diligence.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:45:42):
Its own methodology, its own protocols, its own attention. And I think one of the ways that we can catch the bullets is by that intense due diligence. And one of the ways is from getting away from the idea that this is a kind of sneaky way to wash away our climate sins and more into the thing that we've been talking about, which is we're building a new sector from scratch, and some of those are going to go wrong, and some of those are not.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:46:05):
And we can do our best to make sure that they don't go wrong. And when they do go wrong, we can fix it in our portfolios. We just guarantee that if somebody does go swap it out with something else. But broadly speaking, this is about building a new sector from scratch and not about just making ourselves not feel guilty anymore.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:46:22):
And I think with that kind of mentality, you can get away from the—of course they have to have high integrity, but it's not about whether there's an article on the front page of The Guardian about whether you did the wrong thing. It's about collectively building a new sector and getting it to the place where we all need it to be.
Hermant Mistry (00:46:39):
Yeah. No, absolutely. I totally agree with that. We need to move forward. And sometimes, you know, we might find that some of the things we've looked at have not been as optimum as we wanted. So we have to. So to actually address that, we need that accounting mechanism, a robust, transparent accounting mechanisms. We need to make sure that there's reciprocity across governments as well.
Hermant Mistry (00:46:58):
And we can focus on compliance frameworks, global compliance frameworks which are very important. But we need first movers as well. I mean the work British Airways have done is really important. You know, moving forward with this. And also something we haven't quite mentioned is we need to build the awareness across passengers, of what we're trying to do as an industry. So that awareness has to come part and parcel of all the scale up we're trying to do.
Emissions Scopes
Anna Stukas (00:47:20):
Absolutely that piece that an airline’s scope one emissions are actually their customers scope three emissions, and that if an airline can reduce its scope one, either through use of SAF or increased efficiency, or using removals against a scope one compensation target, that can reduce your net emissions per seat, and that translates into a reduction in scope three emissions for your customers.
Myles Allen (00:47:44):
And there's another group we haven't mentioned, in the other direction. You've talked about the sort of the downstream emissions of customers. There’s the upstream obligations of your fuel suppliers that maybe we should be talking about as well. I mean, after all, recently, at least over the past few years, to people making most money out of aviation have been not the people flying the planes. I mean, the people supplying the fuel. And maybe, you know, I think we should start the conversation about whether fuel suppliers have an obligation to do something about the CO₂ that will inevitably be generated by the products they're selling the airlines. And I hope that's a conversation you're having with your fuel suppliers.
Carrie Harris (00:48:21):
I completely agree, and I think especially where many of the oil companies have the opportunity for kind of point source capture of the emissions from the actual oil refineries. You know, they already have the technology to do this. Oxy is a good example of this, but you've kind of applied that knowledge that you've got into now, you know, promoting carbon dioxide removals.
Carrie Harris (00:48:48):
So I think we need to see more of that from the oil companies. So I'm keen to hear from you, Anna, about your perspective on that and how we can do that more.
Anna Stukas (00:48:55):
Well, what I can say is that I'm incredibly grateful to have become part of an energy company that is committed to net zero at 2050 and that is investing significantly today. And it—I think it's no small feat that our CEO on basically every earnings call talks about the carbon management business and the investment in Direct Air Capture, and that they're literally bringing to bear over 50 years of experience of safely and securely putting CO₂ deep underground and leveraging that experience into a new business line that allows them to both diversify but also contribute to solving the climate challenge.
Myles Allen (00:49:37):
But if I may, I mean, it's perhaps not very fair because they're not here, but maybe that's to be reflected on, that some of your competitors, are very happy to talk about what they're doing about SAF or whatever, but the fossil stuff is “Oh, well, we're not going to talk about that. We're just going to carry on selling it.”
Myles Allen (00:49:54):
“As long as there's a market, as long as airlines want to buy it.” And then I think that should no longer be acceptable. If you're selling the stuff, you're benefiting, you're profiting from the fact that somebody is using it. So you've got an obligation to participate in fixing the problem. Because coming back to this to Hermant and Gabrielle's point about, how it's not just about fixing our climate guilt, it's also about—
Myles Allen (00:50:18):
Well, I actually think that's not ,I think the whole guilt framing isn't terribly helpful one at all—It's about enabling future generations, and those the majority of the world's population that's never taken a flight, to take a flight without making a choice between taking that flight and cooking the planet. We've got an obligation and the people supplying fuels to airlines have an obligation to make that possible for the future.
Anna Stukas (00:50:45):
And many of the people supplying the fuels are the ones with the best skills to safely and securely put that CO₂ back.
Myles Allen (00:50:51):
Absolutely. As you are demonstrating.
Carrie Harris (00:50:52):
I think in essence, this comes down to carbon pricing. And really if we look at kind of a global solution for this, every tonne of carbon emitted should be priced, there should be no free emissions. And that's what the aviation industry really has been campaigning for since 2008, since we first started talking about trying to develop this global, you know, we were you were an industry that asked for regulation on carbon pricing.
Carrie Harris (00:51:18):
CORSIA is the current iteration of that. It goes part way. We need it to go further. But it's a great start and that can be used. We'd love to see that applied economy-wide to all sectors. And as you say, Miles, especially to the oil companies who are kind of drilling this and pulling this out of the ground, really every product, every service should have a carbon price attached. And that drives of behavior then overnight. So that feels to me like the kind of the ultimate goal where we want to get to.
Lessons from Aviation
Anna Stukas (00:51:49):
Well, and you picked up on aviation's leadership in this. The aviation sector has really coalesced around a vision for net zero in 2050, a vision for all of the levers that you need to pull. What can other sectors learn from what aviation has already done in terms of recognizing the role of removals, the role of efficiency and low carbon fuels, but particularly that piece on removals? What can the rest of the world learn from that?
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:52:16):
I'll have a crack at that. I think it's super interesting to see how aviation is addressing this because it's at the cutting edge, because it's right there. But everybody, every single sector in the world, depends on fossil fuels and fossil emissions in some form. And, you know, I speak a lot to lots of different sectors and every single one thinks that they're uniquely hard done by. Every single one thinks that nobody else recognizes their efforts in this. And I let them say it all. And I say, you know, I heard that last week from the other guys. I heard that two months ago from someone else.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:52:48):
But I do think one of the things I would say it's not quite well, It’s not quite what other industries can learn, but we haven't talked very much today, slightly to my surprise, about the relationship between SAF and carbon removals. And what I do notice in the aviation sector is that removals are now being taken seriously. But it's just the very beginning, and there are maybe some other sectors that are taking removals more seriously and have been doing it for longer,
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:53:14):
and it's interesting to me that between things like, you know, operational efficiency engines, hydrogen electric vehicles, whatever, SAF is the big one that everyone focuses on, and I completely get that It, you know, it's a drop-in solution. It's really brilliant in lots of ways, but it's not going to be the whole answer. I think that, I mean, the IATA roadmap was terrific, but I think that that is also a bit heroic in its assumptions.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:53:39):
It's looking to me much more like at least 50/50 SAF and removals for what's going to have to be done here. And so it's now how removals and SAF can fit together is something I think this industry really needs to think about. And in terms of what anyone else can learn, it’s that this what I got from you, Hermant, and the IATA road mapping, which is we need to build this because it's existential for our future.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:54:08):
And I don't hear any other sector talking like that. Other sectors might say, oh, we need a plan for our vision to other emissions or at some point or let's, let's experiment with this, but we need to build this because it's existential for our future. It's actually existential for the future of every single sector, and it's existential for the future of all of us doing business on this planet.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:54:29):
And so I think that's the one thing the other industries should really hear. We need to build this because it's existential for our future.
Anna Stukas (00:54:37):
I love that. Hermant.
Hermant Mistry (00:54:39):
Absolutely. Yeah. No, I also just just building on that, also, you know, one of the reasons why we also focus on SAF, drop-in solution, sort of recognizes an in-sector solution, which is really important for us in terms of the credibility for the net zero solution itself. And I think part of the problem we need to address in terms of removals is this stigmatism that's applied to offset offsets and out of sector solutions. So, you know, we need to work to understand how best we can use the different technologies in the in-sector solutions as well. During the development of fuels, low carbon aviation fuels or even for SAF as well, how that can be part and parcel of the solution. And then we need to see how best we can, as I explained earlier, educate everybody else to explain how carbon removals actually supports high integrity credits for removals of CO₂, and how this is part of a different or more promising solution going forward, basically.
Myles Allen (00:55:31):
And if I could just chip in on this, I mean, there's this point about the case for removals going beyond simply being, you know, in some people's framings is just a potentially cheaper or an alternative, to SAF. I wouldn't see it that way at all because if you’re—as I said at the outset—if you're benefiting from the use of fossil fuels, we need to drive up global supply of removals. And one of the one of the oddest objections I get is “oh, no, the aviation industry shouldn't use removals because we need to keep it for something else. To compensate for.” Well, if we’d applied that logic to Pennsylvania Oil, we'd have got rid of the whales even faster, because if we have said, “oh no, no, no, no, we've discovered oil in Pennsylvania. But let's keep it for future generations and we'll just keep using whale oil instead,” that would have been a bad outcome. We drive supply by using things. That is typically the way humans work. If we had, if there was a big demand now for engineered removals, we would have more engineered removals available in the future, not less.
Myles Allen (00:56:49):
So I think one of the fundamental fallacies that many people have in their heads is there's some kind of finite bubble of CO₂ storage available, and if we put some in there, then it automatically displaces some CO₂ storage from somebody else. That's not the way it works at all. That's the sort of peak oil fallacy that you think there's only a certain resource there. And anybody who uses any of it is a somebody else's expense. No. We've got to build that industry, build that capacity. And the only way to do it is to get investment into it now.
Anna Stukas (00:57:16):
Absolutely. I think I heard an anecdote that you can of something like 500 years of the entire United States emissions in the Permian Basin alone. You know, there's huge amounts of geologic storage. There's more than we need.
Myles Allen (00:57:28):
Yeah. But I mean, I think it's important not just to rely on the anecdotes, but to look back at history of, you know, when we've when we've had resource constrained challenges, we've dealt with them by doing, not by, you know, academics like me modeling and saying, oh, this is what you allowed to do.
Carrie Harris (00:57:47):
I’m just going to build on Gabriel's point that I'm bringing in kind of on SAF. And you're absolutely right. Of course, Gabriel, I thought it might just be useful to put some color on that kind of how that kind of also fits into our strategy in IAG and BA. And so, you showed in your slides, Anna, the Carbon Engineering SAF—what do you call it, Air Fuels?
Anna Stukas (00:58:10):
Air to Fuels.
Carrie Harris (00:58:11):
Air to Fuels. So that, that really for aviation is the holy grail. That's where we want to get to. Because once all of our SAF is kind of parts, liquid SAF, is closed loop system, there's no net contribution to the atmosphere. So, with IAG, with BA, we're super excited that our partnership with Twelve, who's a supplier small startup out of California, supplier of parts liquid fuel.
Carrie Harris (00:58:43):
So it's the biggest deal in Europe, of this type of SAF. And it will be starting to operate across our group from as soon as next year. So again, it's showing that the technology solutions are here. To Myles’ point, it’s about scaling them as fast as possible. We really need to show the demand’s there to stimulate the supply.
Carrie Harris (00:59:05):
And then let's get cracking with this because it's super exciting. But it's also super essential.
Key Takeaways
Anna Stukas (00:59:11):
Absolutely. I'd hoped would have a time for audience discussion, but we've just had so much fun talking. So what we do have time for is for each of you to leave the audience. If you have one thing to leave the audience with out of today's discussion, what would that one thing be? Since we started over here earlier, we'll start over with Hermant and work it back to here.
Hermant Mistry (00:59:31):
Okay, so I think just building on the conversation, I think, of course, we talked about scale up. If we're going to really move on scale up, we need government support. We need incentives. We also need big players to come into the market and the big energy providers and someone who have capabilities, like they do on SAF as well, by the way. It’s time for the big corporations to really come up as well.
Dr. Gabrielle Walker (00:59:52):
Okay, so mine would be what I've heard, what I’ve said and what I've heard repeatedly on this panel is this is about building a new industry from scratch, an industry that's existential for all of us, but also not just a government. I'm kind of allergic to saying government should do something. What are we going to do to help that happen? And it's really it's like buy now, buy now, that argument for why I should buy now has just been transformed in the last six to 12 months. Get with the program, understand that you're going to need the supply. Understand that you're going to need the prices set and just get going now.
Carrie Harris (01:00:26):
For me, echo. Buy now, start now. Let's do this now, as well as economy-wide carbon pricing. Honestly that's where we need to go.
Myles Allen (01:00:38):
And just helping everybody recognize that if we're going to stop global warming around the mid-century, which is what we need to do if we're actually going to meet our climate goals, we need everybody to recognize that from 2050, you can't sell stuff that causes global warming. Not a single government has actually come out—I'm not sure even any corporates—have come out and just acknowledge that very simple fact, whether it's an airline ticket or the fuel to fill a plane, if it causes global warming, you're no longer going to have a license to sell it after 2050. And so companies need to plan. Everybody involved in anything that causes global warming today needs to have a plan to make sure they're either no longer using that product that's causing global warming, or they fixed it. And in the case of fossil fuels, it's got to be fixed. Because one thing's for sure, we are going to be still using fossil fuels well past 2050. And so we've got to work out how to fix them.
Anna Stukas (01:01:36):
Wonderful. So we need to start now. Removals are existential. The faster we invest the faster we'll be able to build supply. And we need portfolios now the transition to permanent carbon removals by mid-century. And we're seeing tremendous leadership from the aviation sector to get us moving. A huge, heartfelt thanks to our absolutely fabulous panelists for coming up and really bringing this topic to life. Thank you to our audience for sitting here and listening to us over being outside looking at the airshow. Really appreciate everyone coming here today. And please do reach out if you've got any questions or if we've sparked some future conversations for you. Thank you.
Link Copied!
Could not Copy